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Autor Poruka
PostPostano: Ned tra 22, 2012 11:30 

Pridružen: Pet tra 20, 2012 17:45
Postovi: 5
Da, ali je argument tih naših prijatelja da kod neplodnih parova Bog može učiniti čudo, ali kod trudne žene ne može. Jer se kao ne može stvoriti četvrtasti trokut...tako nešto u tom smislu...
Otvorenost životu bi kao trebao biti osnovni preduvjet pa tek nakon toga međusobno darivanje. Po tom gledištu, ako nema otvorenosti životu, onda nema ni darivanja...(???)


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PostPostano: Ned tra 22, 2012 12:52 
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Pridružen: Pet srp 24, 2009 22:03
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Da, ali nije krivnja na vama: nije da vi ne želite biti otvoreni životu, nego je "krivnja" u prirodnoj nemogućnosti nove otvorenosti životu u tom razdoblju... Dakle, nema pravog razloga krivnje, nema ni grijeha. Vaš osobni dogovor ne obvezuje vas u savjesti pod grijeh.


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PostPostano: Ned tra 22, 2012 17:27 

Pridružen: Sub vel 14, 2009 20:30
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lotta je napisao/la:
Da, ali je argument tih naših prijatelja da kod neplodnih parova Bog može učiniti čudo, ali kod trudne žene ne može. Jer se kao ne može stvoriti četvrtasti trokut...tako nešto u tom smislu...
Otvorenost životu bi kao trebao biti osnovni preduvjet pa tek nakon toga međusobno darivanje. Po tom gledištu, ako nema otvorenosti životu, onda nema ni darivanja...(???)

Bračni život je svet ako se sveto živi, dakle u ljubavi i poštovanju. Meni ovaj stav vaših prijatelja izgleda neprirodan i nekatolički, kao da bi spolni odnosi bili nešto jedva poželjno, ali eto jer se tako "rade" djeca - neka bude. U tome vidim natruhe maniheizma, natruhe odbojnosti prema tijelu ili makar nekog zazora, a tijelo je hram Duha Svetoga. Ako supružnici pristupaju jedno drugom u potpunom predanju i poštovanju i ne postavljaju umjetne zapreke začeću, nema nikakvog razloga da si nameću suzdržljivost, osim prema Pavlovom savjetu. Sve drugo može donijeti nepotrebnu muku, a možda i sjeme kakvog razdora. Preporučam da malo proučavate teologiju tijela bl. Ivana Pavla, a i porazgovarate s kakvim ozbiljnim svećenikom koji npr. vodi bračne susrete.
Inače i prije II. vatikanskog sabora je brak imao tri svrhe - potomstvo je jedna, zakonito zadovoljavanje ljudskih potreba (mislim da ovako doslovce piše) i međusobna pomoć.


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PostPostano: Ned tra 22, 2012 23:54 
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Pridružen: Sub ožu 05, 2011 20:12
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Lokacija: Poreč
+!
Neke osobe mogu imati čvrst stav o tome kako je bračni čin za vrijeme trudnoće zapravo grijeh,
dok neke druge osobe nisu baš uvjerene, da bi to bio grijeh, ali im je zanimljivo tumačenje za takvu tvrdnju.

Zamislimo, da je grijeh sve ono, što nema smisla u Ljubavi.

Jedna osoba
Ako sam gladan, onda ću jesti, ali se ne smijem prežderavati.
Ako sam umoran, onda ću leći i odmoriti se, ali se ne smijem izležavati ljenčareći zanemarujući svoje obaveze.
- Je li grijeh jesti desert, ako više nisam gladan, te poslije nekog vremena još nešto prizalogajiti?
- Je li grijeh malo prileći, iako nemam namjeru zaspati?

Naš međuljudski odnos bi trebao biti blag i dostojanstven poput anđeoskog,
a jedino je bračni čin dozvoljen supružnicima u ovom vremenu.

Kad bi oba supružnika od bračnog čina pravili svojim pretjerivanjem nešto,
što obezvrijeđuje taj čin zbog uzajamne duhovne bolesti i ovisnosti,
onda je to posebna tema.

Ako nema valjanog razloga (zdravlje, besmisao=grijeh,...), iskazivanje obostrane supružničke nježnosti u bračnom činu ne smije nitko zabranjivati.
Osim toga, vjerujem, da je osobi pod majčinim srcem lijepo i dobro rasti u ozračju blagosti i nježnosti,
te joj može samo koristiti u razvoju i ne može joj ostaviti duhovne rane.
A ne treba posebno naglašavati i pisati o dobrobiti bračnog čina za supružnike za vrijeme trudnoće, izvan trudnoće, zatim u mladosti i u starosti.

_________________
Tko se smiješi umjesto da bjesni, uvijek je onaj jači. - japanska

Dan bez osmijeha i čuđenja je bezlično siromašan dan.


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PostPostano: Pon tra 23, 2012 08:58 

Pridružen: Pet tra 20, 2012 17:45
Postovi: 5
Hvala na odgovorima. Ja se naime slazem s vasim stavovima, ali eto moj suprug ima stav da se mora zivjeti cisto.cak ne da je grijeh, nego da je pozeljno da se supruznici odreknu tog cina za vrijeme trudnoće.
evo cak sam i nasla zanimljiv tekst o tome:

Dr. Pavao Brajša
Otac i trudnoća majke

Nedavno sam imao u rukama seksualni priručnik posvećen mogućnostima i tehnikama seksualnih aktivnosti bračnog para za vrijeme trudnoće žene. Listajući tu knjigu i gledajući niz crteža u njoj, razmišljao sam o nekim drugim položajima i nekim drugim tehnikama koje su također potrebne i trudnici i djetetu i braku majke s ocem djeteta. Tu mislim na emocionalne »položaje i tehnike« koje bi trebali koristiti budući roditelji djeteta kako bi održali sebe i svoj odnos u tijeku trudnoće, ali i stvorili povoljnu sredinu za emocionalni razvoj djeteta. Premda se dijete nalazi zaštićeno u uterusu majke, ono itekako osjeća i »doživljava« oca pokraj majke odnosno u zajedničkom »socijalnom uterusu« oca i majke.

Smatram nepotpunom tezu da je funkcija oca samo zaštita majke koja u sebi nosi zajedničko dijete. Otac nije samo aktivni začetnik djeteta. On je i izravni, aktivni sudionik emocionalnog aspekta njegova fetalnog razvoja.

Socijalni uterus nije nešto što počinje s rođenjem djeteta nego ima funkciju njegove socijalizacije od samog začeća. Upravo tu počinje sustavno isključivanje oca iz neposrednog angažmana u vezi s djetetom. Njega sve više udaljavaju od djeteta. Dijete se na taj način sve više isključuje iz odnosa oca i majke i započinje svoj životni put samo s majkom. To bitno utječe na daljnji razvoj majčinstva iz kojeg je isključen otac. Ocu se onemogućuje da zadovoljava svoje »majčinske potrebe« unutar vlastite obitelji, s vlastitim djetetom, pa ih pokušava kompenzirati izvanbračnim avanturama s drugim potencijalnim majkama. To smatram neopravdanim, nepravednim, pa čak i štetnim za razvoj punog očinstva. Imam dojam da trudnica ljubomorno čuva to svoje isključivo majčinstvo i ne želi ga dijeliti s ocem u zajedničkom roditeljstvu.

I za vrijeme trudnoće majke roditelji moraju očuvati i dalje razvijati svoj bračni odnos. To je često veliko iskušenje za oca koji »gubi posao u braku« pa se javlja »na burzu« i traži »privremena zaposlenja« u izvanbračnim vezama. Umjesto da otkriva jednu posve novu dimenziju svoje žene i s njom zajedno razvija bračnu spolnost obogaćenu roditeljstvom, on se pokušava snaći »u susjedstvu« i ostavlja ženu samu sa svojim majčinstvom.

Trudnoća žene je odličan test za stupanj zrelosti oca i njegovu sposobnost vladanja svojom spolnošću i njezinim uključivanjem u generativnu dimenziju muškosti. Mislim da i u braku s trudnom ženom ima mjesta za bračnu spolnost, možda sada nešto emocionalno i duhovno intenzivniju uz zajedničko vizionarsko maštanje o zajedničkom djetetu.


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PostPostano: Pon tra 23, 2012 13:38 
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Pridružen: Pet vel 18, 2011 23:15
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@utopija
je jako lijepo objasnio :)

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PostPostano: Čet svi 03, 2012 13:23 

Pridružen: Pet lis 07, 2011 19:10
Postovi: 87
Berny je napisao/la:
Zanjima me što mislite vi, i koji je stav Crkve prema bračnom odnosu između supružnika kada je žena u drugom stanju?


Ne znam kakav je stav Crkve, ali meni osobno je to veliko NE! Nekako mi je to čudno, ipak je dijete u tebi.

Iako mi je zbilja čudno da se muž potpuno distancirao od tebe. Zašto mu ne kažeš što te muči? Ispada kao da si surogat majka.


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PostPostano: Čet svi 03, 2012 13:44 
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Pridružen: Pet tra 13, 2012 20:41
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anki je napisao/la:
Berny je napisao/la:
Mislim da nisam dobro formuliral pitanje...dakle kad mislim na bračni odnos mislim na čin sjedinjenja, tj. da li su dozvoljeni spolni odnosi...Znam da je Crkva uvijek okrenuta prema životu, i da bračni čin tj. spolni odnos uvijek treba biti otvoren za novi život i stavljen u potpunosti u Božju volju...ali ako je žena već trudna i nosi dijete...nemoguče je biti otvoren u tom smislu....znam da medicina ne stavlja ograničenja na taj dio osim u situacijama nekih rizičnih trudnoća. Spolni odnos iz čiste požude je grijeh, ali ako nema požude ili žara između supružnika ne bi bilo danas ni jednog čovjeka na zemlji...dakle supružnici stupaju u bračni čin tj. spolni odnos u ljubavi, bez prisile , potpuno slobodno...iako je žena u drugom stanju... da li je to grijeh ili nije....oprostite kaj nisam bil jasan u prvom postu :mrgreen:


Požuda u bračnom sjedinjenju nije dozvoljena bez obzira da li je žena trudna ili ne.Kad pogleđaš ženu sa požudom u srcu poćinio si preljub bilo da se radi o tvojoj ženi bilo da si pogledao drugu.



Seks bez požude? Teško moguć, mislim da je ovo malo pretherano idealiziranje bračne stvarnosti. A trudnoća bez seksa...teško da bi koji muškarac mogao izdržati 9 mjeseci bez toga...dobro dozvoljavam da ima i takvih.

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The ability to simplify means to eliminate the unnecessary so that the necessary may speak.


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PostPostano: Čet svi 03, 2012 17:05 
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Pridružen: Ned ožu 26, 2006 22:09
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Da se vratimo na temu, stav Crkve je da sa duhovne strane nema zapreke za vođenje ljubavi u trudnoći, mogu postojati eventualno tjelesne prepreke no to je druga stvar. Onaj kome iz drugih razloga ne paše vođenje ljubavi u trudnoći, svakako se odlučuje za apstinenciju iz tih drugih razloga.
Lotta, ako su vam te teme važne u braku, najbolje je otići zajedno na razgovor i raspraviti sve što vas zanima sa svećenikom (odlično o tim temama objašnjava don Damir Stojić ili npr. Jure Bosančić), jer ako ćete prihvaćati "logiku" svojih prijatelja umjesto Nauk Crkve lako se može skrenuti sa zdravog nauka.


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PostPostano: Pon pro 15, 2014 10:23 

Pridružen: Pon pro 15, 2014 09:44
Postovi: 285
nažalost katolički nauk se u 20. stoljeću promijenio što se tiče seksualnosti općenito.
najveći katolički naučitelji sv. augustin i sv. toma su se oštro suprotstavljali seksualnim odnosima u trudnoći. poznate su i vizije bl. anne katarine emmerich u kojima ona tvrdi da joj je objavljeno tj. da joj je dana spoznaja da se dijete duhovno "oštećuje" ukoliko roditelji spolno opće u trudnoći.
http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog/2011/03 ... ocreation/

sad će moderni apologeti reći kako je crkva "evoluirala", kako je Duh Sveti donio nove spoznaje bla bla bla, ali meni moja savjest i razum govori kako Duh Sveti koji je vodio crkvene oce i naučitelje u prošlosti ne može odjedanput promijeniti mišljenje i objaviti nešto novo. očito da je došlo do nekakvog zastranjenja, aberacije u crkvenom nauku i da se onaj koji se drži nauka sv. augustina, sv. tome., bl. ane katarine emmerich ne može nazivati apostatom ili buntovnikom već se to jedino može nazivati onaj koji je odbacio stari nauk i prigrlio novi. stari koji odbacuje asketski, pokornički život a prihvaća novi nauk koji potiče tjelesno zadovoljstvo i užitak.
razum nam je Bog dao. razum mora vladati nad tijelom. ako razum shvaća da je dijete već začeto, onda je spolni odnos u trudnoći sa ženom potpuno promašen. a definicija grijeha jest da je grijeh - promašen cilj. prema tome, razum caruje, duh caruje, a tijelo se pokorava.
suzdržavajmo se od seksa u trudnoći! :!:


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PostPostano: Pon pro 15, 2014 10:46 

Pridružen: Pon pro 15, 2014 09:44
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evo izjava crkvenih otaca i naučitelja (nažalost na engleskom):

Athenagoras the Athenian (c. 175 A.D.): “After throwing the seed into the ground, the farmer awaits the harvest. He does not sow more seed on top of it. Likewise, to us the procreation of children is the limit of our indulgence in appetite.” (A Plea For the Christians, Chapter XXXIII.--Chastity of the Christians with Respect to Marriage)Nature itself tells us through our inborn instinct that it is unreasonable and unnatural to sow a seed in the same place where a seed is already growing.

St. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195 A.D.) writes: “To…a spiritual man, after conception, his wife is as a sister and is treated as if of the same father.” (The Stromata or Miscellanies, Book VI, Chapter XII) St. Augustine, in his book On The Good of Marriage (A.D. 401), likewise agreed with the Church’s tradition that performing the marital act during pregnancy is unreasonable and unnatural since “necessary sexual intercourse for begetting [of children] is free from blame, and itself is alone worthy of marriage. But that which goes beyond this necessity [of begetting children] no longer follows reason but lust…” (Section 11) He also taught that marital relations during pregnancy is “the sin of the persons, not the fault of marriage.”

St. Augustine, On the Good of Marriage, Section 5, A.D. 401: “There are also men incontinent to that degree, that they spare not their wives even when pregnant. Therefore whatever that is immodest, shameless, base, married persons do one with another, is the sin of the persons, not the fault of marriage.”Two activities recommended by some heretical NFP teachers are having sex during menstruation and during pregnancy, both of which the earliest extant Church Canons, the Apostolic Constitutions (c. 375 A.D.), specifically reject: “When the natural purgations do appear in the wives, let not their husbands approach them, out of regard to the children to be begotten; for the law has forbidden it, for it says: "Thou shalt not come near thy wife when she is in her separation." [Lev. xviii. 19; Ezek. xviii. 6.] Nor, indeed, let them frequent their wives’ company when they are with child. For they do this not for the begetting of children, but for the sake of pleasure. Now a lover of God ought not to be a lover of pleasure.” (The Sacred Writings of Apostolic Teaching and Constitutions, Book V, Chap. XXVIII.)

It is bad to touch a woman during pregnancy since it gives the child in the womb “many sinful impulses” according to Anne Catherine EmmerichIn the revelation of Anne Catherine Emmerich, entitled the “Life of the Blessed Virgin Mary”, we read the following interesting points about marital relations during pregnancy:“It was explained to me here that the Blessed Virgin was begotten by her parents in holy obedience and complete purity of heart, and that thereafter they lived together in continence in the greatest devoutness and fear of God. I was at the same time clearly instructed how immeasurably the holiness of children was encouraged by the purity, chastity, and continence of their parents and by their resistance to all unclean temptations; and how continence after conception preserves the fruit of the womb from many sinful impulses. In general, I was given an overflowing abundance of knowledge about the roots of deformity and sin.” (Anne Catherine Emmerich, Life of the Blessed Virgin Mary)Despite this, many lustful people will not agree with what Anne Catherine Emmerich had to say here, and some may even be offended by it. The reason for this is because these people and others want to deceive themselves into thinking that there is nothing wrong about lust or concupiscence. Yes, they even claim this even though they know and are fully aware of that lust leads countless of souls to Hell and eternal damnation. However, whether or not they want to agree with it or not, it’s just a fact that the sexual lusts and temptations that urges people to commit sins of the flesh is an evil product of the fall, and of original sin. In other words, humans were not originally intended to experience concupiscence and temptations of the flesh according to God’s perfect plan for humanity, but it ended up in that way because of Adam and Eve’s transgression. If a person is honest with himself, he will understand that this is true. However, most people want to deceive themselves and therefore choose to overlook this fact.In summary, the definition or meaning of the revelation of Anne Catherine Emmerich is that lust is evil and that a couple’s marital relations during pregnancy will effect the child in a negative way, inflicting many sinful impulses upon the child. Anne Catherine Emmerich is clear that “continence after conception preserves the fruit of the womb from many sinful impulses.” The sensuality and sinful impulses that thus will be aroused by many spouses’ sexual relations during pregnancy is a great evil that will affect both husband and wife, and their future child, in a negative way. Because of this, parents should do all in their power to abstain from marital relations during all pregnancies.

St. Caesarius of Arles, Sermon 44:7: “Above all, no one should know his wife when Sunday or other feasts come around. Similar precautions should be taken as often as women menstruate, for the Prophet says: ‘Do not come near to a menstruous woman.’ [Ezech. 18:6]… Truly, brethren, if animals without intellect do not touch each other except at a fixed and proper time, how much more should men who have been created according to God’s image observe this? What is worse, there are some dissolute or drunken men who sometimes do not even spare their wives when they are pregnant. Therefore, if they do not amend their lives, we are to consider them worse than animals. Such men the Apostle addresses when he says: ‘Every one of you learn how to possess his vessel in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who have no hope.’ [1 Thess. 4:4-5]”The biblical Book of Tobit also teaches that the virtue and abstinence of the parents will effect whether their children will be born whole or with defects of different kinds. Thus, we read that “the third night [of praying and observing chastity before having sexual relations] thou shalt obtain a blessing that sound children may be born of you.” The blessing on the third night of “sound children” obviously means that those couples who do not perform the marital act for the sake of lust or too often, and who are virtuous and wait for three days in accordance with the promise of Holy Scripture, will receive a child without birth deformities or defects. This may be hard for many to believe, but this is really and truly what Holy Scripture is promising and saying.Tobias 6:18, 20-22 “[St. Raphael said to Tobias:] But thou when thou shalt take her, go into the chamber, and for three days keep thyself continent from her, and give thyself to nothing else but to prayers with her. … But the second night thou shalt be admitted into the society of the holy Patriarchs. And the third night thou shalt obtain a blessing that sound children may be born of you. And when the third night is past, [of praying and observing chastity] thou shalt take the virgin with the fear of the Lord, moved rather for love of children than for lust, that in the seed of Abraham thou mayst obtain a blessing in children.”It is sad to see that none today seem to care anything about these promises or virtuous deeds that promise these remarkable and wondrous graces that Our Lord said he would bless a virtuous couple with. One could think that even a worldly or ungodly couple would appreciate the grace of not receiving a child that is deformed and that they, if they believed in God or were aware of these promises, would act in accordance to the words of the Holy Scripture; but now neither “Catholics” or so-called Christians nor any people of the world care anything about these words of our Lord that promises the inestimable grace of receiving “a blessing that sound children may be born of you.”

St. Bridget was also revealed the truth of the spiritual danger of having marital relations during pregnancy in a spiritual revelation. In it she saw a man that was tormented in purgatory. St. Bridget was allowed to communicate with this tormented soul. She asked the man about the specific reasons why he escaped Eternal Hell. He answered saying: “The third [reason I escaped being eternally condemned to burn in Hell] is that I obeyed my teacher who advised me to abstain from my wife’s bed when I understood that she was pregnant.” (The Revelations of St. Bridget, Book 9 or Appendix)

St. Clement of Alexandria, On Marriage and Procreation (c. 198-203 A.D.): “Right from the beginning the law, as we have already said, lays down the command, “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife,” [Ex. 20:17] long before the Lord’s closely similar utterance in the New Testament, where the same idea is expressed in his own mouth: “You have heard that the law commanded, Thou shalt not commit adultery. But I say, Thou shalt not lust.” [Matt. 5:27-28] That the law intended husbands to cohabit with their wives with self-control and only for the purpose of begetting children is evident… For this reason you could not point to any place in Scripture where one of the ancients approached a pregnant woman; later, after the child is born and weaned, you might find that marriage relations of husbands and wives were resumed. You will find that Moses’ father kept this principle in mind. After Aaron’s birth three years passed before Moses was born. [Ex. 7:7] Again, the tribe of Levi observed this law of nature given by God, although they were fewer in number than any others which came into the promised land. [Num. 3:39] For a tribe does not easily grow to great numbers if their men have intercourse only within the legal marriage relationship and then wait until the end not only of pregnancy but also of breast-feeding.” (The Stromata or Miscellanies, Book III, Chapter XI, Section 71, 72)Doctors usually recommend some abstinence after labor, usually four to six weeks before resuming intercourse. This allows time for the woman to heal after birth. Total abstinence, if needed, is required during this time period according to the doctor’s recommendation.The Old Testament also confirms that Our Lord wants spouses to practice chastity for a while after the birth of the child.Leviticus 12:1-5 “And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: ‘Speak to the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them: If a woman having received seed shall bear a man child, she shall be unclean seven days, according to the days of the separation of her flowers. And on the eighth day the infant shall be circumcised: But she shall remain three and thirty days in the blood of her purification. She shall touch no holy thing, neither shall she enter into the sanctuary, until the days of her purification be fulfilled. But if she shall bear a maid child, she shall be unclean two weeks, according to the custom of her monthly courses, and she shall remain in the blood of her purification sixty-six days.’”Since the Old Testament teaches that a person who becomes defiled cannot touch other people during the time that they are unclean, this shows us that God wants the spouses to abstain from the marital act for a while after they have received the child.One must really marvel over how the members of the Christian Church, (who should be more virtuous than the people of the Jewish Old Testament religion) have fallen into this degraded and filthy custom of having marital relations during a woman’s pregnancy or menstrual period. The Old Law was only a shell and a sign of the future things in the New Law, and even the Old Law forbade marital relations on many more occasions than the New Law does. The reason of why the Old Law forbade things that now are not sinful is because in the New Law, Our Lord wants us to do many good things, not because we are forced to do it, but only because we know that they are good in themselves, which is a more virtuous and meritorious act. Christian spouses should obviously act and live more virtuously and holy than did those people in the Old Law, since all Christians have received more graces and knowledge of Our Lord than those in the Old Law, and it is really a blemish on the Christian community that this is not happening. The amount of graces that are be lost because of these filthy and unnecessary acts of lustful spouses is, sad to say, immeasurable and inestimable. “Men shall be… lovers of pleasure more than of God.” (2 Timothy 3:1-5)Thus,

St. Ambrose (c. 340-397) could rightly declare that it is shameful to continue to have sexual relations after pregnancy, and that those people who do this act “contaminate the former [the child] and exasperate the latter [God]”: “Youths generally assert the desire of having children and think to excuse the heat of their age by the desire for generation. How much more shameful for the old to do what is shameful for the young to confess. For even the young who temper their hearts to prudence by divine fear, generally renounce the works of youth when progeny [offspring] have been received. And is this remarkable for man, if beasts mutely speak a zeal for generating, not a desire for copulating? Indeed, once they know the womb is filled, and the seed received by the generative soil, they no longer indulge in intercourse or the wantonness of love, but they take up parental care. Yet men spare neither the embryo nor God. They contaminate the former and exasperate the latter. "Before I formed you in the womb," He says, "I knew you and sanctified you in your mother’s womb." [Jer. 1:5] To control your impatience, note the hands of your Author forming a man in the womb. He is at work, and you stain with lust the secret of the sacred womb? Imitate the beast or fear God. Why do I speak of beasts? The land itself often rests from the work of generating, and if it is often filled with the seeds thrown by the impatient eagerness of men, it repays the shamelessness of the farmer and changes fertility to sterility. So even in the elements and the beasts it is a shame to nature not to cease from generating.” (St. Ambrose, Archbishop of Milan, Exposition of the Gospel According to St. Luke 1:43-45)

St. Clement of Alexandria, On Marriage and Procreation (c. 198-203 A.D.): “Far more excellent, in my opinion, than the seeds of wheat and barley that are sown at appropriate seasons, is man that is sown, for whom all things grow; and those seeds temperate husbandmen ever sow. Every foul and polluting practice must therefore be purged away from marriage; that the intercourse of the irrational animals may not be cast in our teeth, as more accordant with nature than human conjunction in procreation. Some of these, it must be granted, desist at the time in which they are directed, leaving creation to the working of Providence.” (The Stromata or Miscellanies, Book II, Chapter XXIII)Origen (c. 184-254), Homilies on Genesis, Homily V, Section 4, On Lot And His Daughters: “Let the married women examine themselves and seek if they approach their husbands for this reason alone [for having children], that they might receive children, and after conception desist. For those women... when they have attained conception, [rightly] do not later assent to copulation with a man. But some women, for we do not censure all equally, but there are some who serve passion incessantly, like animals without any distinction, whom I would not even compare to the dumb beasts. For even the beasts themselves know, when they have conceived, not to further grant opportunity to their males. The divine Scriptures also censures such when it says: "Do not become like the [sterile] horse and the mule who have no understanding," [Ps. 31:9] and again, "They have become stallions." [Jer. 5:8] But, O people of God, "who love Christ in incorruption," [Eph. 6:24] understand the word of the Apostle in which he says: "Whether you eat or drink or whatever else you do, do all to the glory of God." [1 Cor. 10:31] For his remark after eating and drinking, "whatever else you do," has designated with a modest word the immodest affairs of marriage, showing that even these acts themselves are performed to the glory of God if they are attended to with a view to posterity [offspring] alone.”“In fact, a good Christian should not only observe chastity for a few days before he communicates, [that is, before he receives the Holy Eucharist] but he should never know his wife except from the desire for children. A man takes a wife for the procreation of children, not for the sake of lust. Even the marriage rite mentions this: ‘For the procreation of children,’ it says. Notice that it does not say for the sake of lust, but ‘for the procreation of children.’ I would like to know, dearly beloved, what kind of a harvest a man could gather if he sowed his field in one year as often as he is overcome by dissipation and abuses his wife without any desire for children. If those who are unwilling to control themselves plowed and sowed repeatedly their land which was already sown, let us see in what kind of fruit they would rejoice. As you well know, no land can produce proper fruit if it is sown frequently in one year. Why, then, does a man do with his body what he does not want done with his field?”

(St. Caesarius of Arles, Sermon 44:3)It must also be made perfectly clear that natural infertility during pregnancy on the part of the woman is not a reward for the spouses to have “great sex” because they were “good” in fulfilling the marital duty (the procreation and education of children), as so many people today nowadays actually (and falsely) seem to believe.It is reasonable to conclude that if women were not infertile during pregnancy, many bad husbands would be endangering the life of their wives by exposing them to too many childbirths at too short time intervals. Consequently, if women were not infertile during pregnancy, many more mortal sins would be committed by married and unmarried men since they then would be inclined to seek relief of their fleshly lusts in other ways or by other women, so as not to endanger the life of their own wife or mistresses.Indeed, to St. Jerome and the rest of the Saints and Fathers of the Church, the indulgence permitted in the marital act was not something good or praiseworthy because it only acts as a relief valve to avoid a greater evil: “Thus it must be bad to touch a woman. If indulgences is nonetheless granted to the marital act, this is only to avoid something worse. But what value can be recognized in a good that is allowed only with a view of preventing something worse?”.St. Bridget was also revealed the truth of the spiritual danger of having marital relations during pregnancy in a spiritual revelation. In it she saw a man that was tormented in purgatory. St. Bridget was allowed to communicate with this tormented soul. She asked the man about the specific reasons why he escaped Eternal Hell. He answered saying: “The third [reason I escaped being eternally condemned to burn in Hell] is that I obeyed my teacher who advised me to abstain from my wife’s bed when I understood that she was pregnant.” (The Revelations of St. Bridget, Book 9)


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PostPostano: Pon pro 15, 2014 23:50 
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Pridružen: Ned ožu 26, 2006 22:09
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Koliko vidim ovi tekstovi koje si naveo preuzeti su sa stranica koja ne priznaju papu Franju, Benedikta XVI, Ivana Pavla II i Pavla VI, i njih nazivaju antipapama. Ujedno ne priznaju ni nauk Katoličke Crkve, te govore da se Nauk promjenio kod ovih papa.
A ono što Katolička Crkva naučava je da bračni čin ima neodvojivu ulogu sjedinjenja i prokreacije, i nikad nije zabranjivala vođenje ljubavi za vrijeme trudnoće, ili kod parova koji su neplodni, ili pak žena koje su prošle menopauzu. Bilo je kroz povijest Crkve prenaglašavanja, tako je u prvim stoljećima općenito prenaglašavan smisao prokreacije, no to prenaglašavanje nije nikad bilo službeno Crkveno učenje. Crkva ne uči da je bračni čin samo za prokreaciju već govori o "neraskidivoj vezi između dvojakog smisla bračnog čina: smisla sjedinjenja i smisla rađanja" (GS 32) koji se u bračnom činu ne mogu odvajati jer je to povezanost koju je "Bog htio a čovjek je ne može svojevoljno ukinuti"(EV). U prirodno neplodnim periodima je također dozvoljeno sjedinjenje, te periode je Bog zamislio da budu neplodni sa svrhom, a smisao bračnog čina nije samo rađanje, već i sjedinjenje odnosno zajedništvo supružnika.


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PostPostano: Uto pro 16, 2014 08:46 

Pridružen: Pon pro 15, 2014 09:44
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iako je stranica doista sporna i pomalo ekstremistička, ove izjave svetaca i crkvenih naučitelja su doista autentične.
ako je te iste svece i crkvene naučitelje vodio Duh Sveti, kako je moguće da se Duh Sveti promijenio?
to doista nije moguće. očito je došlo do pada u moralu i razvodnjavanja crkvenog nauka.
po mom mišljenju, ja doista nisam griješio kada sam imao spolne odnose sa ženom za vrijeme njezine trudnoće jer nisam bio upoznat sa autentičnim naukom, ali nakon što sam pročitao izjave svetaca, više nemam opravdanja...


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PostPostano: Uto pro 16, 2014 10:03 

Pridružen: Sub vel 14, 2009 20:30
Postovi: 2092
KRIŽAR2 je napisao/la:
iako je stranica doista sporna i pomalo ekstremistička, ove izjave svetaca i crkvenih naučitelja su doista autentične.
ako je te iste svece i crkvene naučitelje vodio Duh Sveti, kako je moguće da se Duh Sveti promijenio?
to doista nije moguće. očito je došlo do pada u moralu i razvodnjavanja crkvenog nauka.
po mom mišljenju, ja doista nisam griješio kada sam imao spolne odnose sa ženom za vrijeme njezine trudnoće jer nisam bio upoznat sa autentičnim naukom, ali nakon što sam pročitao izjave svetaca, više nemam opravdanja...

Ti, očito, ne znaš da ni jedan svetac nije nepogrješiv i da nauk Crkve jest ono što određuje Učiteljstvo kojemu je Krist povjerio vlast. Bez obzira što pojedini sveci nose titulu naučitelja Crkve, nije svaka stvar koju su napisali autentičan nauk Crkve. Tko sluša zakonitu vlast u Crkvi, Krista sluša, a osobni stavovi su SAMO osobni stavovi.


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PostPostano: Uto pro 16, 2014 10:06 

Pridružen: Pon pro 15, 2014 09:44
Postovi: 285
sara je napisao/la:
KRIŽAR2 je napisao/la:
da nauk Crkve jest ono što određuje Učiteljstvo kojemu je Krist povjerio vlast.


slažem se :!: sv. augustin i sv. toma su bili učiteljstvo crkve i odredili su nauk.
postavlja se pitanje kako je kasnije učiteljstvo moglo izmijeniti učenje ranijeg učiteljstva?
ovo je pitanje svih pitanja.


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